Home Back to activities Bruno Manser Fonds Heuberg 25 4051 Basel Switzerland phone +41 61 261 94 74 fax +41 61 261 94 73 info@bmf.ch updated 2001-01-31

Basel, September 2nd, 1999 LIFE IN A THREATENED PARADISE   Bruno Manser, Bergli Books Talk Party September 2, 1999 Bider & Tanner Bookstore, Basel (Transcribed from the cassette tape and edited by Edessa Ramos). The questions in parenthesis throughout this presentation are mainly from Dianne Dicks of Bergli Books. Now and then, someone from the audience also asked a question. Bruno started by answering the question posed by Dianne:

Dianne Dicks (DD): How did you get started in this line of work?

Bruno Manser (BM): The idea was to become somebody who can do a bit of everything to survive. And so, after I finished college here in Basel, I knew I didn't want to study in the university. That's because I already felt too much like a cow during my school days, that is, just re-chewing the food that is fed to me as a pupil. So I wanted to go look for my own food. And the truth is, I wanted to do something with my hands. So I went off to learn different handicrafts. I wanted to have just the things we need to survive in our daily life. I wanted to know where they come from, how they are made, and if possible, to try to do it at least once myself and get to know what it is all about. The clothes we wear, the things we touch everyday, the food we eat - I wanted to get this knowledge. So when I left school and my colleagues went on to the university, I went to work in the Swiss Alps. I took a course in juice-making. For several years I made juice and milked the cows. In winter time I learned different handicrafts, such as carpentry. I even went logging in Swiss forests. I learned to work with horses - riding, chariots, carts - and I started to learn spinning sheep, to knit, to weave, after which I went to the old men who worked the leather. I also tried tanning but without much success. I took the skin off the mountain goat and the deer. I took the bark of an oak tree, buried my skins in the ground with this bark, and dug it out two days later. It didnt' turn out well, however. I wasn't able to make it really soft, to make it into cloth. These are old handicrafts that nobody did any longer. This was already the past, and if you wanted to try to do it, this cost a lot of energy from you, where you will not be successful, where you just waste your time doing the wrong things for you have nobody to teach you. There is for instance this old friend who was already dead in 1990, she told me how to work the hemp in the Swiss Alps. They still have the instruments to work the hemp in. They still have pictures where they put the hemp for 3 weeks so that it starts to rot, afterwards they work the fibers, but nobody was doing it now. This was already the past.

DD: Was there anybody doing this with you or was this solo back-to-nature?

BM: Well I made some courses like there was that time in Switzerland, in Richterswil, the Heimatwerk Schule. This was really a good institution, unluckily they close now, this was for farmers who want to work in winter time, so you can make their course like weaving for the women and men, doing carpentry, or working with stones. So I made a lot of courses there. But I also learned modern handicraft like welding or even cutting the horn of the feet of the cow, or working with bees. There were many things I tried to learn on all levels. The handicraft was what touched me most, it was most fascinating for me - turning wood - everything which is round, you can make bowls, buttons, or the chair to milk the cow, and things like that. There was no teacher there. And then I thought I would like to join somewhere a tribe in this world who is still living not yet connected to modern society and cash economy but doing everything they need for their survival. And then I was looking in the maps, I always had a dream already as a little boy of Borneo, about the jungle. But then I checked out the university library here, I bought books in libraries about the rainforest, for I thought the rainforest may be the last places where there are still indigenous people living who had not yet much contact with modern society. You can't just land with a helicopter in the rainforest, no landing site for there is a closed canopy. I read mainly books about the Amazon, Brazil, South America, and Borneo. And then in a book I just came across a tribe whose name is the Penan people, a nomadic hunter and gatherer society. I tried to find out more about this; I didn't find out much information. And then one day I just decided I just go and look what will happen and try to live there for a couple of years. To my parents I said, I think don't expect me back for 3 years. And it was my first trip outside Europe, my first visit to a tropical country, and I had just a 1-way ticket to Thailand. My plan was first to get used to the climate and to learn the Malay language. So I spent 3 months in west Malaysia, and I learned Malay on my own just on the road by travelling and being with the people. And then I went to Sarawak. I was doing a little bit of caving here in Switzerland. In fact, quite an intense time for 2 years. In winter time I did much, much everything done was caving, for here in Switzerland we have the longest cave systems in the world - 145 kilometers long - 2 systems, one near the Lac of Thun which was a bit of the territory of my friends and these caving groups. And I could join the caving expedition of the Royal Geographic Society to the Mulu, which is a fantastic region in Sarawak. So I was their part-time member for a month, and when the expedition left, I stayed and my adventure started. I had some information where the last nomadic tribes lived. For these Penan people, there is a number of about 9000, they say - I haven't counted all of them - but there are about 260 maybe persons left, about 60 families, who still live their nomadic way of life as hunters and gatherers. They do not do any agriculture. They just go to the forest and look for their daily food. If the food is getting scarce, they will go some place further. But each tribe has its clear territory. They will never go over their watershed to a neighboring tribe as this will cause problems. So finally after 10 days walking through very dense forest. I just saw wild boars, monkeys... I had a bush knife - a machete. I had a compass that time and I also had a map from the caving expedition which was in the neighboring area. It was of some help, but not enough, for if you are in the jungle, you never see farther than 50 meters. You are always in the trees. And even if you are on a hill, you just see the next hill which is 100 or 200 or 500 meters away. So if you don't have a really exact map, you won't get really along. If you don't have a map with the lines which indicate the altitude (longitude?) and everything, it's really difficult not to lose yourself (your way). So what I did not to lose myself, I just went up on the highest mountain ridge, and there you climb up a tree, and from there you have the view and also the points. But as soon as you leave it, then there's the danger of getting lost. But the problem was, in a tropical country like Borneo, when you reach a certain point above sea level, the vegetation turns completely different and becomes very dense. It becomes impossible to penetrate this vegetation. And so I just stuck to keeping on this, really cutting a trail across this mountain ridge, just to get through it. One day, I even didn't reach maybe 1 or 2 kilometers. I had to cut my way for 1 or 2 hours, go back for 10 minutes, pick up my backpack, walk - it was impossible with my heavy pack to go through this vegetation.

DD: What did you eat?

BM: I had with me a fishing net, but I was up in the mountains and so no way to catch fish. Also, it was a rainforest, but the time I was there, for four days no rain. And this was limestone - no water. So for 2 days I didn't drink. I worked from daylight, 6 in the morning, I didn't eat or drink. So the second day I got problems, I really noticed - it started to stick together inside here (points inside his mouth and to his throat). So I found a plant, a pitcher plant, a carnivorous plant with a big belly where the insects fall in and get digested. So you can drink this water. If there are ants inside, it gets slightly acidic, so it's pleasant like lemon water. You just have to use your teeth in order to keep the ants out. But if there are big, big insects digested, you can no longer drink it for then it gets really bitter.

DD: But you knew that before, or you discovered this plant by accident?

BM: No, I discovered it while I was walking. I didn't know this plant before. I had to try. It wasn't poisonous. But I had poisonous experiences before that. In west Malaysia, when tried to get used to the climate, I had read in a book, all palms which have thorns, you can eat the heart of the palm. So I was alone there in the west Malaysian rainforest, I found these palms and so I trid to cut. And as I wasn't used to cutting this, it was also hard to harvest this palm heart. So everything which got a little bit smashed, I ate it, and I ate a lot. And on my way back I started to feel, wow, "that's not good". And I arrived at a river and I had to cross this river which had big currents so it was a bit dangerous, but my camp was on the other side. I just remember that I knew I had to make myself vomit in order to get rid of this palm heart, otherwise I don't know what would have happened. And I remember I tried to do it with my finger. And I was already too weak, I think I fell unconscious. Sometimes I woke up and it was on my mind that I had to vomit, so I tried again, and then I did, and I fell asleep for about an hour or two. And I felt better to be able to cross the river again and make it to the other side. And later on I met the orang asli - they told me that this is a poisonous plant. You must not eat this. So I got very careful. When I came from Thailand to west Malaysia, it was chinese new year, and all the banks were closed for 3 days. I didn't have anymore malaysian money. So what should I do, I didn't want to hang around in a big city there. I looked in the map and there was a lovely island, so okay, I go to this island for 2 to 3 days. I stayed for 6 weeks on this island. It was my first meeting with the sea. And then I said, I want to try and live only from the things I find on this island. And so I didn't buy any food. So once or twice I got poisoned there. I just tried fruits and roots which were poisonous. So then I realized that if you go to a country, in an area where you have no culture yourself, then you really should join the indigenous people, the local population, stay with them, learn from them, and afterwards you can do these silly things. If you do it directly in the first place, you may hurt yourself unnecessarily.

DD: Did you cook anything?

BM: Well, I was fishing there. I cooked my fish.

DD: How did you make fire?

BM: I had a lighter (laughter in the audience). But I learned to make fire without a lighter in the traditional style of the Penan, which is already diverse by way of history. They use flint stone or a mountain crystal, but they use an old piece of iron. With the crystal they hit this iron so it sparks, and then they try to get the spark on some material that takes the spark. And then you have to blow to make it start to lift. In Sarawak, they even have special plants they prepare which are very dry, until you can get the flame. Today, those who smoke still use the flint stone for it's easy to get just the spark, and then it just starts a little bit, it's just a bit red when you blow, but you don't really get the flame, but it's enough to light a cigarette. But if you really want to make fire, it needs more preparation. So when I met the Penan, there were just two families...

DD: How did you meet them the first time? I mean, you were alone in this jungle. They must have seen you before you saw them. Were they aware you were around? What happened?

BM: Well, when I once climbed a tree on this mountain ridge, I saw smoke, far, maybe 10 kilometers farther on the other side. This was the area of the sources of the rivers, so I knew the Penan must be there, the nomads. So then I left the mountain ridge and went down to the river and there I found traces in the sand, barefoot. So I knew I wasn't far. But it was already late afternoon. If I now start to climb the mountain it will be night, and I didn't want to arrive at a place I don't know, they don't know, at nighttime. And so I slept there, and in the morning I heard voices. And a man and a woman stood just 50 meters away and looked at me. And we didn't say anything for 2 minutes, just looking. And then I raised my hand. I have learned from the scaling expedition - we had 2 Penan as porters - I learned from them just one sentence: "my name is Bruno, I am coming from there", the name of the village from where I stopped my travel. So, that's what I said. But the woman ran away and just the man stood there. Afterwards the man came towards me, and then I followed him. I just picked up my stuff...

DD: Did you smile? Did he smile back? Or did he seem himself to be afraid of you?

BM: It was a mixture. I was of course smiling. They were of course... (like saying) what's that?

DD: And what does a smile mean? Do they smile for the same purpose as you would smile?

BM: Oh when they are happy they smile. But they did not know yet if they had a reason to smile. I had a reason to smile. I was happy I have met them, after 10 days.

DD: But they probably have had bad experiences with people intruding on them?

BM: I came to a place in which, really, it was nearly impossible for people to arrive. Nobody would go through this mountain range, no one. And the way that it took me - 10 days- if I would had known that there would be a pleasant way, you just walk, you don't need a bush knife, and you make it in 3 days. And they still have a lot of stories about headhunters. There are just a few people living who still remember the last heads that have been cut off, and people are scared. There's always rumors that there may be headhunters there. It was also this fear that it may be a headhunter why they went along. They have different strategies, big groups when they make war and cut a lot of heads. But they also have just one person who has to get the head and bring it back home. But after we have met, they saw I am a white man. And the Penan are not a people living isolated for centuries. They already had a colonial government. This was the Brooke-family who ruled Sarawak for a hundred years and they had trade meetings every 6 months with the Penan, where they brought guns and loin cloths and lighters and whatever. They had some kind of barter trades where the Penan brought the leopard skins, rhino horns and their handicrafts. And so the Penan had a good remembrance of this trade, and they were happy about this trade which helped them get some things from modern society which made life a bit easier. I remember there were just 2 families when we arrived at the hut. So I was greeted, but there was one man who did not greet me. He was just making his darts behind the house. He never looked at me, he always looked aside, and I didn't know what this meant. There was some distance and I didn't know if he was angry or if he was scared. I learned later his name was "Laki-aya" which means "the enemy". But I wasn't worried. The Penan are very shy people. Finally, after I've been living with them for 6 years, in the end, they are really a unique people. I mean, each group of indigenous peoples is unique in some way. But the Penan are unique for 2 reasons: one, there are 26 (27 or 28) different indigenous groups in Sarawak alone, in the northern side of the island of Borneo. There is an expression for them which calls them the Dayak people. They all make agriculture, which means shifting cultivation. They cut part of the forest and then they plant rice, manok (?), maybe bananas, some few other things to live from. Plus fishing and hunting. But they all have very developed societies with a hierarchy. They all have been headhunters. And they made wars.

DD: Was the headhunting from their beliefs in animalism, so that as if somebody dies the spirit shall accompany the deceased person?

BM: It's part of their culture, of their initiation, so with the Iban, the one who has cut one head can wear another tattoo, so the one with more tattoos rises in the hierarchy of the tribe for he is a brave man. I remember one old Penan who told me a story about the neighboring tribe who came back with the head, and all the women cooked young shoots of palms and they had a big feast and drank a lot of borak, the rice wine. And all the women were crazy about the men coming back with this head; so this was very important in their society. And the Penan, they are really completely different. And it's self-explanatory, I think. I repeat this every time I talk about the Penan, and I don't get bored repeating this for it's incredible. Within 6 years, I have not once seen 2 Penan quarrel with each other. I have not even seen one person shouting at another person. I have not even seen that somebody who was speaking, a woman or a man, has been interrupted while speaking... this kind of respect. I came back in 1990 and was invited to a big talk show in television in Berlin, I couldn't believe it. I thought I was in a civilized world and came to a primitive crowd... like this, and in front of the television, they cried out at each other... I couldn't believe it, and this was my society.

DD: If the Penan don't get upset, they don't shout at each other, what happens if they don't agree about something. They must have different opinions. How do they come to a consensus?

BM: That's very interesting. If there's a problem to solve, a decision to make, they sit in a circle and the first starts to speak. And he opens his heart and says everything he wants to say, and he won't interrupted. He can speak for 5 minutes or for half an hour. Nobody will interrupt him or her. So when he or she has finished, it's the turn for the next one, so they finish the whole circle, then it starts again - to reply. So that's real dialogue. And in the end, it's not necessary that everybody come to a common decision. But usually, in some way, it's a common decision. For the Penan, in their tradition, usually the important things they have to talk about are: when do we leave this place; where do we go? As the Penan are hunters and gatherers, if they live in a certain territory, the resources near this area will be exhausted at some time. They will harvest the sago, kill the wild boars, the barking deer, the mouse deer, the monkeys, the python, whatever they meet. So when the wild game is getting scarce and they have to walk too far, so then they will decide to follow the wild game. That needs less energy. This is in the interest of all. But maybe, one still has a sago palm and he still wants to work. So he says, okay, you go tomorrow, I still want to work the sago palm, maybe I will follow in 2 days. And then he will follow. So there is no boss of a clan who can impose his will on the others. In the end, everybody has to decide for himself, whether there's discussion about it, and this is something which I have never seen. I have never seen violence against anybody. I have not seen parents forcing their kids to do something, or a husband his wife, or a wife her husband, or a chieftain his tribe. A chieftain - I don't really like this expression. Their chieftain is a person who really has a good tongue. Who knows how to express his heart better than others. But he has no decision powers in their tradition. This is now changing with all the political and economic changes, companies and all the invaders coming into their territories. So if there are 2 things I want to bring back into Penan society, one is the respect, and the other is - and I have yet to talk about it - sharing. This is also so touching, again, in Penan society is: somebody who is more clever than the others, braver than the others, or who has more success, he cannot use this to get rich. He cannot use this to have a personal advantage on the material level. And it's very simple, for a good hunter works more than a bad hunter. He has to carry much more, if he is successful with a wild boar, this may be 60, 70, 80 kilograms he is carrying back. He leaves the settlement early morning at daybreak, he doesn't say a word, he walks the whole day. If he doesn't have success, he will just come back at dawn. And he won't have eaten anything. He would never have been sitting down, having a rest, taking a nap. I have never seen that. It was a hard time for me, following the hunters. The first 3 or 4 hours it's okay, but then you start to make a lot of noise while walking, you lose your concentration, and I can't believe it. This took a long time to get used to, to keep this concentration the whole time. And also during the day, you walk very fast until you get where the wild game is and then you have full concentration, and then you walk again very fast until you meet wild game again - the whole day is like this, it's very tough. But then the hunter who brings back the wild boar or the deer or a part of it, won't take even a little bit more for himself than is given to each family. Each family will receive the same amount from his wild boar. Maybe it won't even be him who cuts the wild boar, it may be his wife. It may be his neighbor. If there are 5 families, for instance, they will cut the liver in 5 pieces, they will cut the stomach in 5 pieces, the kidneys in 5 pieces, all the pieces of meet more or less the same amount for each family. And the head of the wild boar - the family which has the most firewood handy, they will roast the head until it's really tasty, and they will give to each family its share. Then the Penan asked me: you also share back home when you hunt the deer or so? And then I had to be very ashamed. If it's done in the Swiss Alps, the hunter either directly sells his deer or his mountain goat or it ends up in his own fridge. Or maybe he invites once some friends. But for them it's direct sharing. And also if you implement this sharing, think about it? it's good to think about it, why in our society, somebody who goes to high school or university has a higher salary than the one who cleans in the railway station. But who does the more important job. And how is this sharing in our society - it would be lovely to come a bit in the direction where, everyone whatever he does, that the gain of work in fact should not be just to earn money but to be able to make a living. This of course is a personal teaching I bring back from them.

DD: What kinds of things do you that help make you part of the group or a valuable member of the family?

BM: Maybe through my living with the Penan, one important thing is, that the Penan became more aware of their own culture. For I was collecting all information. I always wanted to talk to the old people, listening to the fairy tales, to their myths, everything they wanted to tell about the different plants, of medicines. So in the end, as I was also a bit nomadic among the nomads, in the end I think I had even more knowledge, even as someone from the outside, than many of the Penan themselves. In my view, at least in some way, I would like in the near future most of the Penan in some way will get educated in modern style, maybe writing in their own language about their own values, their own culture, so they won't forget about it. For this is only an oral culture. So one generation is enough to make everything lost. They have for instance in their tradition that's incredible, something like the Odyssey, the Iliad, they have in rhymes really old songs, which are all in rhymes, about their old heroes. Just a little part of this is left, some old people still can sing a part of it. And they said these have been stories that have been sung the whole night through. Like nearly endless stories, one adventure after another of these old heroes, who could jump over the top of trees, doing everything they could do.. In Sarawak especially, the mission played a bit of a bad role concerning the tradition of the Penan. Maybe the Penan have been following the way of Jesus more than many many christians from our world who think they know it better. In the late 40's, in fact already during the end of the 20's, the first missionaries arrived in Sarawak. But mainly in the 50's, 60's, an Australian mission has been very active there. So they forbid the Penan from having more than 1 wife. They forbid them to smoke, to drink, and the consumption of blood. When I arrived there in Sarawak, in fact I went to the mission with the hope that they can help me with a dictionary of the Penan language, which would have been helpful, but they couldn't give me anything. But I have been looking through their photo books where I already saw these Penan women all in their long whit e clothes down to here, from the missionaries, and the fires they made in burning all the amulets and talismans which the indigenous peoples use, and this was a big success to turn the pagans into christians.

DD: So they forbid them to drink blood, which is a part of their diet probably?

BM: Maybe this is the biggest sin of the missionary, to forbid them the consumption of blood. For the Penan don't consume blood or meat raw - they cook everything. But they don't eat any vegetables, apart from the palm heart. But the palm heart does not contain green, no chlorophyl, so they need to get the minerals from somewhere. And the blood contains more minerals than any spinach or anything else. So when they have killed the wild boar, usually the blood remains in the belly, so took a part of the appendix, the guts, so they get the blood from the belly and fill it into this appendix, they put this inside the stomach together with the liver, then they close the stomach, then they put it back in the belly of the wild deer or wild boar, stitch it together again and then carry it back home. And at home they will take this blood and mix it with sago, which is a flour which they produced from the sago palm, and they will bake it. And so now, they throw it away. This causes a health problem. They are not exposed to the sunlight. They are always in the shadow. They have nearly no minerals, especially with the problem in the food season.

DD: And their clothing - the missionaries probably wanted them to wear their clothing - did this cause problems?

BM: Yes of course so that the women don't walk around bare-breasted and things like that. Now this has changed anyway. Now you won't see the Penan women walking bare-breasted. They will walk bare-breasted if they have a child to feed - it's easier than to have the t-shirt and all that stuff. This is a pity, but this development.

DD: The textiles in the rainforest, it's probably difficult to keep them clean...

BM: This is of course my personal view, I love to see the Penan, be it a woman or a man, in traditional loin cloth made from bark, all the bracelets which they have all the way down here. This is just beautiful. They have beautiful bodies, the men and the women, and now it's... I once offered an old man a t-shirt, for I said anyway it would be good when you have colds. He said, no thank you, I don't want to be - how do you say it in English - when you walk through the jungle, there is the rattan which has hooks or thorns, so when you walk there wearing nothing, these hooks usually slide over your skin, but when you wear a t-shirt, they will hold you back. So he said: I don't like t-shirt, I don't like to get stuck when I'm walking (laughter from audience). But this is an exception. All the young people now, they will like a t-shirt, they will like a wristwatch, and they will like whatever modern society brings. For it's also a change from "to be" and "to have". And it's mainly young people who have not yet developed their consciousness who like to. Just like in our society, not only the young but also the adults. We do always do these silly things. We want to show who we are by showing what we have. And this wouldn't be a bad process if we can overcome it? go through it and then also let go again and realize that's not the true life in the end.

DD: What are these that you're wearing?

BM: These are all the bracelets that all the Penan wear. It's not leather, it's rattan. Rattan is dyed. This is also very interesting, to think about the development of the Penan. They have about 10 different plants they can use to dye the rattan black. So they take one of these plants, they cook the rattan together in a pot for one hour, but then they take it out and it's still yellow, nothing has changed. Then this rattan is put into the mud where the wild boar take a bath, and so the next morning it's black. How did the Penan find out which plants to use? In Malaysia alone, they have over several hundred species of economical use. Trees. So it's a huge biodiversity. So how did the Penan know? There must be ways which go a bit farther than just trying out things, somehow like an idiot who looks at what is happening - it needs more intuition.

DD: And how do they pass this knowledge on to their children and to themselves? A written language like you say, of course?

BM: I have a quite different opinion from most educated people in our society when they talk about alphabets. For there what I see what is happening. In fact, the Penan girls, they learn from their moms, from their aunties, from their grandmas, they learn everything. They learn to make these beautiful patterns. And they have many different patterns to do their work. They know which medicines to use for what. And all these things the boys learn from their fathers and from the men. The kids follow them hunting, and so they learn everything about which smells, which traces (tracks) and what they mean, so they have the best teachers of the world they can have. For every boy in fact has his own teacher. In modern society, one teacher for 20, 30 boys, and what do they have to learn. Just sitting in the back and wait for the breaks so they can play around in games. While this life in the jungle, this is fantastic. I have never seen a boy or a girl sitting there bored. There is always adventure. Everyday, something is happening which takes your attention. So now, when the government tries to settle these people, to take them away from their parents, so they live in the school, they get a lot of food, so they miss all that. So those students in the school, they will get lazy in some way. They are fed, and of course they learn something but they don't have to do something physical in exchange. And I think this may be a reason for some kind of negative pride - elitism. I think this is important. Of course the children, they get everything they need. But already there existed an exchange with the children and their parents, with society, and already this is broken when the modern world is coming in. So the boys, after 5 years in school down in the city, they just sit around and wait for their parents to get the firewood and say, oh I don't like the leeches. Well, leeches are not the most pleasant animals in the world, but you get used to leeches when you live in the jungle. They suck a little bit of your blood, and if you eat enough you can also help to feed them a little bit. You kill them when you see them. I came twice in a difficult situation. In fact I always eat everything people offered me, but in few cases, I remember the first case I refused something - I didn't dare refuse for I was their guest - it was not with the Penan, it was in Sabah with another indigenous tribe - and they had some really rotten monkey meat and liver, and they put a lot of spices. I had it in my mouth and I couldn't get it down; I had it afterwards in my hand with no opportunity to get read of it for I didn't want to tell them their food is bad. And the second time in my life, I was invited for a meal in the Philippines - this was with the Pidayu tribe, in a small island of fishermen - and they invited me to eat, and in fact I wanted to eat, but suddenly I saw the skull or jaw from a carnivore. And I said, what kind of carnivore do they have on this island - they had killed a dog. And I said, sorry, I can't eat. But this is personal. I know you can eat a dog, if you have to eat anything that contains protein. But with the Penan it happened once. Usually there was enough food. But once there was a situation - there was a woman giving birth to a child, and there were some problems, and the tribe was waiting already for 2-3 weeks. The child would be born. So they stayed together, all the relatives together to support the woman, and there were too many people living there, so the surroundings were exhausted. There was no wild game, so we were really hungry. And I remember then, once I was in the settlement, some Penan came back, and they were still far, you could smell, it was really like the smell of cadaver. And they brought back a deer which another Penan had shot with his blowpipe a week earlier - so this is all green maggots, but they were so hungry, and I didn't want to eat. I can't. But then they cooked it, and you know, it's all red - it's still bad, but not so bad. But after that I got a diarrhea. And then I said, I would never eat rotten meat again. But the hunger also pushed me to try it. We had enough sago - you won't die from hunger but it's like, if you eat for 2 weeks just bread, nothing else, you won't have much appetite. And with the sago, you need meat to eat it, it just has no taste. Bread at least has some taste.

DD: It sounds like you were in paradise. You were happy there, you had what you needed. People were getting along, you felt welcome, it felt like heaven. And then, what created the conflicts and why aren't you there now?

BM: Before I answer the question, I still want to say something beautiful. One of my most beautiful experiences which was like paradise - I remember once, I was in a settlement, they were already Penan who were just semi-nomadic, or semi-settled, so they did shifting cultivation but they were still hunters. And I remember I was on a visit there and we were very tired, it's just physically - heimlich - like you feel at home. It's a feeling where you feel really very good, like the child in the belly of his mom. You have everything, your mom feeds you, you don't have fear, your mom cares for you. And once I realized that this is something we don't have in our society. We were all tired. We had a meal during the day, the grandfather was there laying down. And we were all tired, so my head was on the belly of the grandfather, a boy's head was on my belly, and then some girls, they played with - caressed - the hair on my legs, for they don't have hair on their legs. And this was such a beautiful feeling, just to be together and also have a physical contact. And for me this was a beautiful experience. It was grandfather, children, it was not a sexual thing at that moment. I was wondering myself why do the Penan have no violence in their society. And I was thinking for a long time, what could be the reason. You see kids here, they quarrel with each other. You think it must be in the human being to quarrel, it must be natural. But when I see the Penan do not, is it natural. So what is wrong here, what is different with the Penan? Of course I have not experience with other indigenous peoples, and maybe there are others, or maybe here also in Switzerland and Europe, there are children and families with good social relations. Where the husband understands very well his wife, and the children are well cared for, and everything is fine also a bit like paradise. And I think one reason may be the Penan, they never let a child cry. If a child is crying, somebody will go and take the child and try to calm it down, look after it. And the children, most of the time they have body contact, they're always carried but their mom, by their sisters, by their brothers, by their neighbors, this may be a reason. They get this feeling of security as children. So afterwards they have no need. Unlike in our society there is so much frustration already as kids, they are all separated, people do not care for them, they're just in the way, mom goes to work, they have to go to another place, many things which make them cry. And afterwards they have to get the balance by doing bad things to others. I wonder whether this may be an explanation. I'm not sure about this, there may be other things.

DD: It's such a small society, isn't there a lot of incest coming along?

BM: When I came to the Penan, I of course was trying to know everything, and I realized that marriage between cousins is traditional. Most of the nomadic Penan, they marry their cousins. They have such a low density, they have no choice. Now everything will change. But these Penan kids I met, I wouldn't say they were silly or that the kids here would be more clever. So when we say that inter-marriage creates whatever - this is not true. This is the proof. You can look at these photographs of Penan children, they are such beautiful children. But maybe among I would say 2 southern Penan, I have seen abnormalities. I have seen 2 children which had Nasenscharte . I have seen one woman who was deaf and dumb. And I have not seen a mongoloid trisomic child. There is one child who is really handicapped, but it had an infection of the brain - encyphalitis or something, or meningitis. I think if there is really a handicap already after birth, the child will not survive.

DD: There is probably a high child mortality...?

BM: Of course, compared to our society, yeah.

DD: ... and people do not live very old, what - 55?

BM: No, I don't think so. I think I have never seen such an old person as I have seen with the Penan. I think it's just the child mortality which pushes down the average of age. But the Penan do not count the days, or the weeks, or the years, so nobody knows how old. This is also beautiful again for a child is a fully accepted person in society. There is none of this hierarchy because of age. Really the small children - and this is my opinion - most of the small kids, they are really nasty. They are not beautiful, but why? - they all had to go through so many diseases. This in fact is the check for them to become a real human being. And if they have been through these, they won't have a problem with these diseases that won't repeat when you had them as a child. And so around the age of 7, they really become beautiful. And after the age of 7, usually they won't die from diseases. Of course it's still possible, but the people I've seen dying, there were accidents or they were old. Of course if a doctor would check what could have been the cause, it could have been cancer. But they have been old people, and they have lived their lives. But I've seen once, the woman of a man, and I think she was already uhr-uhr-uhr, and a man who could have been her son. But he was already an old man. And she was already bone and skin and no more hairs, and they said for maybe 4 years she could not move. She's carried by her husband on his back when they move from one place to the other. But she had a strong will. They told me to go to her, she would not eat, I should pray for her. When I went to her, she asks, "why are you here, what do you want?" I told her, "I've come to pray for you, you would not eat." "Who said so! I'm fine!" She still had eyes that were really... But she died a year later. But she was like a living mummy. I've never seen something like that. It's like what you see in a museum, you know.

DD: And they probably have a great tolerance or acceptance of death?

BM: No. There's the paradise, everything is fine, they share everything, there's no violence, but there's one bad thing in this world - but I don't think we are much farther from the Penan - everyone of us in some way does not like to die. Death, that's the worst thing that could happen to you. Anyone of us, unless we want to commit suicide.

DD: They don't have watches there, do they?

BM: They have now lots of watches.

DD: Does time have any significance to them?

BM: No, many watches don't work. It's for decoration. If you live really in the jungle, and you know the cicadas, when the cicadas make this calling (makes sound of cicadas calling) - you know now it's time to speed a little bit up, then it still takes maybe an hour, and then it will be dark. The cicada "riya" starts (makes riya sound) - you know in 5 minutes it would be dark. So these are the important things to know when you are out. There are cicadas in the morning, there different cicadas at noon, and also in the evening. Because the cicadas I think they follow the brightness. So if there's really bad weather during the day, the sky is getting really dark, it means it could be mistaken. But usually, this is the natural watch of the Penan. Now maybe the less pleasant part of it. In short, the bulldozers came from the coast to this territory where the nomads live and many Penan came to me and asked me for help. They saw that I'm a white man, relation to the old British government, the queen has promised us to have our own territory. So I got into a difficult position, where I knew I was already overstaying without proper documents. And I just wanted to hunt with the Penan, make drawings of lovely animals, and so on. I knew if I get involved, I will biting into a sour apple maybe. I was really in a conflict, personal conflict, but finally I said I have to do what I can for them. For I am coming from civilization. The disease is coming from civilization. They need support. So what I did, I knew that these logging companies, their way was to get their permit from the government, the government never contacted the indigenous peoples living there, just gave out the logging licenses to the companies coming in, and when indigenous peoples told them please don't come, they reply "well, we have permit from the government. You have to go to the government." So how will these people go to the government who already speaks another language? They have to go downrivers, they've never been there. Some manage, there have also been some few educated people, like a teacher maybe, who tried to meet the district officer downrivers, but then, these few who made it, they were made false promises. They said: "Oh, don't be scared, there will still be enough forest for you", or "you have to talk with the logging company, that's not our business." So they were pushed around. And as these are small groups, they have no chance. If there is a company with 20-30 bulldozers, with all their people coming in, and there're just a few families who don't know anything, and they see these big machines, they don't know what to do. So I tried to organize a meeting where all the different groups who live in this territory would come together, just sit together and discuss what they want. And this was already a very difficult thing, for they were all so scattered, you know. They have to walk maybe a week or more to get to a certain place. They don't have much affinity to time, so this took a long time. At the fourth time I organized a meeting, finally it happened. First times there were just some few people coming and there was no possibility to come to a conclusion. So at this fourth meeting finally, I played their secretary, and I put their demand - where they said this and this are our territories - I put this on a map and I put what they said in English, and I sent this then to the government and the logging companies and to the Forestry Department. Then my problem started.

DD: How can you send this, was there a post office?

BM: Yes, there is in the territory of the Penan. There are other tribes and there is even an airfield near, where there is another indigenous group living, which is also the way where I could send my post back to Switzerland and get messages from outside. But when you went from there to the nomadic people, you have to walk one week. But now you can drive in directly into the heart where the Penan live. But most of the territory is destroyed meanwhile. So I ran into these problems, and the government tried to arrest me, all the police invited me. They have the proof, these letters I've written. And after the time this thing didn't work out when there was no reply, I went downriver - there were some Swiss people working for Shell, and they invited me to come to them, and to use a typewriter that time, and to get contacts of different newspapers and magazines. I wrote an article and sent it to 20 newspapers in Europe but also around Asia and local newspapers in the hope that they would publish it. One local newspaper published something, and the Geo magazine from Germany said "we come ourselves and we make a story about it." And so then this became a big international publicity. Then an Australian came in, they made one film. Then the Swedish film team came, and then the French, and then the Swiss want to come, and the American want to come, in the end I said, I have enough. There have been 3 documentaries now, I'm tired. I don't like to talk to all these journalists. In fact I was looking for the life in the wilderness and I'm back to all these. But then the government got really crazy about my person and they sent the military in, about 70 people from the army, just to look for me. And so I didn't have a pleasant life in the end. I remained 6 years, so for nearly 5 years I was always a bit on my (guard) - people come and say, the military's here, and I have to make a circle and go around. Finally I left the country in 1990. I didn't want to leave, but it was also a bit inadvisable. People said, if you continue to live there, it won't help the cause, you have to go out, and you have to bring the word of the Penan to the international attention, and if you remain in the jungle, you have no chance. And that's when I made this decision in 1990. I came out and now it's 9 years. There were a lot of things about to happen and I won't tell all the details.

DD: Well, at one point there was a hunger strike in front of the Bundeshaus and you were knitting with Mrs. Dreyfuss a pullover which is part of the Bundes archive today. Was that part of the effort that you made to get attention for this cause?

BM: In some ways, of course. As long as decision-makers don't show heart and responsibility, there's no chance. It needs politicians who dare to show their heart and take a position that is human, in respect of human rights, which are declared in the United Nations and even in our own constitution - the right to food for every human being, the right to a healthy environment, and we were part to destroy these for some tribe, nobody knows their name, just by profiting from this timber trade. What we asked in the beginning of the Swiss government is, please make a moratorium on imports from timber from Sarawak on grounds of human rights violations and destructive non-sustainable exploitation of this timbers. And they refused, they said we can't deal with our population from above, it's the citizens who have to decide for themselves whether they want to buy something or not. But in fact the reason behind it was that Malaysia is the second largest importer of arms from Switzerland. And there is a law on trade relation. If the Swiss government made a unilateral restriction on trade, they will reply and they will cancel contracts with Swiss companies. And so they feared this, so they had a reason not to do a moratorium. So the second step was, I went to all these shops and looked where do we find tropical timber, and I found it everywhere, and it was never declared. So we asked, if the citizen should be able to make a decision and a choice, they need the information, but there is no information here. So we asked a mandatory declaration of timber products in the market. This was then voted on in two councils, and the council of the state accepted it, and the national councils they refused it, so nothing happened now for 4 years. Now it's again on the agenda. And this autumn, Christoph Einmann made a motion, and now it should be dealt with this autumn. And in our new newsletter we found a lot of reasons and products you find anywhere in the market or in the different companies, where you don't know what you buy, and you even think you buy something else. You just look yourself in the newsletter, it can be furniture like oak, and you find tropical timber inside. You think it's all oak and it's not. And so you're getting part, for as soon as you buy these things there is a demand for it. And as long as there's a demand, they will cut the forests. The reason given - we as Swiss cannot make a first step, this has to happen in coordination with other countries - this is not a valid argument, I think. We have to think in front of our own door first. And this makes the example. It has to start with the small. In the big, it will never happen. I don't believe in big international conferences. I believe rather in a small nation, and if it's not possible as a nation, you start on a small scale. And that's what we did in the end. We started a campaign, we wrote to each village and city in Switzerland a letter with the timber and they don't know how to judge this. Are there specialists to do this?

BM: Every carpenter knows the timbers that are used, there's no need for me to come in. You can just ask the carpenter to check it. But if they have construction like a school, and they put it out, and companies make offers, if there is no such rule, the company which makes the cheapest offer will get the contract, and this company will for sure use tropical timber, timber from Sarawak, from Canada and so on. That's why we started this campaign. Th is is still going on. And there are now 2521 cities, city councils, or villages and communities who have made such a binding decision. But as for big cities involved, it already more than 1/3 of the Swiss population. And for instance now, Basel Stadt in Baselland, they have made this decision in the government of the canton also. Some few communities - canton Appenzell, Innerrhoden and Ausserrhoden, the whole canton now made the decision. So we want to use this also as a political example. And we have put this to all 2,900 something communities in Switzerland in the 4 Swiss languages. This is maybe a little success that we can count.

DD: Now you are saying we all of a sudden. You are finding sponsors, supporters, people know about you, they know about your program...

BM: In fact when I say we, it's our little small foundation, the Bruno Manser Fund, and we live just for 85% just from donations. Like from evenings I give where we make a collection, or from people who get our newsletter for free, but they can pay what they like, whenever they like, and from the sale of our information materials like books, videos. I just want to show some of these examples. You can still buy nearly all the frames for your photos - loving photos, family photos at home - most of it is made from ramin. You find most of the timber in Switzerland, you find in the doors, I'm quite sure these doors behind there, it's mostly white paint, I will need a knife to check it, below this paint, there is 95% sure it's tropical timber. And the reason is it's cheaper than timber from here.

DD: But it doesn't make sense. It has to be transported.

BM: If all the products in the market would get the price which reflects their value, we wouldn't have environmental problems or human rights violations. But yet all the products that come from the third world, more energy, more transport, they are cheaper. So somebody is profiting. When we buy the cheap product from the third world, the difference is the people in those places who will have to pay - the degradation of their environment, of their culture, their economy. They are a lot of stuff like these, they are declared. What is declared is what you can see, and usually this is just plastic or veneer, like in one case here, I think it's maple veneer, so it's declared as maple but it's tropical timber. Or even they have plastic, also these boxes you see here, it looks like beech but it's just plastic, but there below I think it's just some "spamplatte" - medium density fiberwood. The mdf is one species. So these are very small particles. And you have like novo palm which has big fibers which needs a lot of energy, a lot of gum, which is also not good for your health. So you have to check it out. So usually they declare just the cover, which is just plastic. Also in these cases they declare it like oak - you see the picture of oak tree, you see the picture of a pine tree - or they declare is as pine. But this is just a picture, but below here now it's plywood. Plywood is when you cut the whole tree in slices and you always put one cover like this, the other one like this, so it warps less when it's humid. This is just to show that this mandatory declaration is necessary. And in case you have a contact in the national council, this will be discusses soon in a month's time - please phone or write them - there will be election soon so they will be sensitive - for transparency in trade. Without transparency in trade there will be no improvement. Objective information, when people buy something, not just for timber but all products. What is it, what is in it, where does it come from? Then you can think about it. The ones coming from South Africa, why is it cheaper than the apple in Switzerland, you include the transport, you make your own accounts, and then you must say, this is not the true price, I should pay 3 times more. So when you want such a product, pay 3 times more, or buy something from the local market. It's a simple rule, buy local products. Then you can have relation to the people who do it, you can also in some way control it, have some idea. But anything coming from the world market now, it's difficult to know whether it's good or bad. And we go farther, the big fires last year in Borneo, they all blamed El Nino, but El Nino just showed mistakes of the human being. For the virgin forest, naturally, cannot burn. It contains too much humidity. It has a closed canopy so the sun cannot dry below. But when the loggers go in, they take the trees out, just the log, the rest they leave behind, so the tropical sun will shine on it, will dry it, so when people make fire, this fire will then destroy also this degraded forest, and if it's really turning bad, they may also destroy virgin forests if this climate change really gets worse. And it's getting worse, that's why the protection of the last remaining virgin forest should be a priority and it should not be allowed that timber is exploited from the last virgin forest. There are enough degraded forests, secondary forests. Switzerland has no virgin forests left. Switzerland is a good example of a forestry which is sustainable. You say don't take more out than can grow after. But in virgin forests, there are much more qualities of bio-diversity, fire protection, indigenous peoples use the resources, that just defy such a decision. And this is really an important thing to be implemented on the international level, for instance, have such a binding guideline that would under no circumstance finance road construction and commercial logging in forest forests. And this should also be adopted on national levels. But concerning the fires, even if you just don't buy tropical timber - there may be a few exceptions of tropical timber you can buy if you really want it that may come from sustainable production - but if it comes from virgin forest, there is no sustainable production possible. If you take out the thousand-year-old trees, you will destroy these virgin forests. There will no longer be any virgin forests left. But those who made the big fires in Borneo, all the companies who make the palm oil plantations - Malaysia and Indonesia are the biggest exporters of palm oil - export of palm oil and use of palm oil increased in the last 5 years by 30 % in Europe. So every one of us who buys for instance Palmolive soap, or margarine - there's also margarine which comes from the oil of the sunflower, but most margarines contain palm oil - now even chocolates, they changed the law to replace cocoa with palm oil for it's cheaper. So you see, you can buy biologic with palm oil. Even this is not credible. So again, why not use resources that come from here. This will also help the trade to change. If you change the manners of consumers, the trade will also follow. They want to make business. If you don't buy their stuff, they will sell other stuff. What you also can do when you're buying furniture from timber, when the company does not know what they are selling or where it comes from, in fact, you should lose confidence in this company. So you prefer a company which is declaring what they sell. But the problem is many companies even declare things wrongly. So it's difficult for you to know...